Matana Roberts is a multidisciplinary artist, saxophonist, composer, and performer. With the release of In the Garden…, their ongoing, projected 12-chapter series COIN COIN is near its midpoint. Roberts has developed a composition system for the series based on mixed media scores combining graphic notation, visual art, film, and ephemera, channeling the images and (hi)stories left behind. Coming out of the fertile hybrid music scenes of Chicago, Roberts resists being pigeon-holed into any one genre, and has a particularly complicated relationship being labeled as a “jazz” musician. In fact, as they point out in this episode, Roberts rejects binaries in general, preferring to explore other ways of being, a theme which is also reflected in the narratives of each of the chapters of COIN COIN. In this episode, we discuss Chapter Five, the loss of jaimie branch, and the lessons they learned from Montreal.  (Joseph Sannicandro)

Episode 38: DIS/PLACED – with Matana Roberts

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Interview recorded in Montreal, November 2023
Produced and mixed in St.Louis, August 2024

This episode is the third and final part of a sub-series of this season of Sound Propositions, following DIS/EMBODIED with Cruel Diagonals and DIS/CONTENT with AGF, in which all three artists reflect on the significance of their use of their voices, histories, and identities within their artistic practice, themes which will also recur in different ways in the final, two-part season finale, recorded during UNSOUND 2023.

Matana Roberts’ formation as an artist owes as much to the make-do DIY ethos of punk rock as it does to the spirit of the black avant-garde and free jazz. Born in Chicago, they came of age as a musician in the fertile hybrid music scenes of that city, benefiting from free music lessons in the American public school system. Through their political scientist father and his record collection, they were exposed to the music of the legendary AACM. As an adult they would later collaborate and for a time join AACM, mentored in particular by Fred Anderson. Roberts has since collaborated with a great many artists and ensembles, playing on Godspeed’s Yanqui U.X.O, with Roscoe Mitchell as part of Rob Mazurek‘s Exploding Star Orchestra, and as a member of Greg Tate‘s Burnt Sugar the Arkestra Chamber. In recent years, Roberts has increasingly been in demand for commissioned compositions, often dealing with contemporary issues. But they are perhaps best known for their series COIN COIN. 

COIN COIN is Matana Roberts’ magnum opus, a projected 12-chapter epic encompassing themes of history, ancestry and memory.  In The Garden… is the fifth chapter, and like previous installments was released by Montreal’s Constellation records, known for their exquisite packaging, showing off Matana’s detailed, mixed-media collages and graphic notation. Often compared to large jazz ensembles like those of William Parker, Wadada Leo Smith, and Burnt Sugar, jazz is undoubtedly present in Robert’s aesthetic as a composer and improviser, particularly in the way they play with tradition and evoke double consciousness. But ultimately “jazz” is inadequate and misleading, as their work transcends such labels and the emphasis critics place on genre detracts from the work’s uniqueness.

Roberts’ interests have always been varied, and they have continued to find means of channeling those myriad interests, be they intellectual, political, poetic, artistic, or musical, into their present work, which is done a disservice to be described solely in musical terms. A seasoned writer and visual artist, producing DIY zines, working from a system of graphic and video scores of their own devise, their work insists on intersectionality and the totality of their activities inform performances. In addition to physical zines, Roberts has also embraced, if perhaps at times skeptically, social media platforms such as Instagram, frequently going live (when not on one of their periodic social media breaks). 

COIN COIN evokes a plurality of meanings, and even its name demonstrates this radical ambiguity. As they explain in this episode, historical ephemera are incorporated in their graphic notation and album art, influencing the compositional system developed for the project. Roberts is less interested in improvisation for its own sake, but within the confines of  compositional structures, something clarified by witnessing their live performances. Coin Coin Chapter Four: Memphis was released in October 2019, and its live instantiation became delayed due to the pandemic. I finally had a chance to see Memphis live at Montreal’s Suoni festival in 2023, where Matana performed and conducted an ensemble of Montreal improvisers with graphic notation, cards, and plushy dice purchased at Dollarama.

That performance took place on Friday, 23 June 2023, the finale of the three-week long Suoni per il Popolo festival in Montreal, then in its 23rd year. Matana Roberts began their set with a short burst from the ensemble followed by a moment of silence for the recently departed Peter Brötzmann. Just after 23h (that’s 11pm; no ‘eleventh hour’ in French Canada) Roberts pointed out the recurrence of the number 23, noting as well that 2+3=5, as we were then awaiting the 23 September 2023 release of In The Garden​.​.​., the fifth installment of their COIN COIN series, produced by TV on the Radio’s Kyp Malone. [Constellation has a discount on all five chapters if you need to get caught up. And you can read Rich’s thoughts on chapter five here, while I wrote about the third chapter of COIN COIN, River Run Thee, for dpi. journal back in 2015.]

For Suoni, Roberts assembled a band to perform chapter four, Memphis, in its entirety. Memphis is the installment I’ve listened to the least, mostly because it is the most recent installment in the planned 12-chapter series. I listened to it immediately upon receiving the promo in 2019, and again while driving from Minneapolis to Montreal with Cole Pulice that summer, but for whatever reason since the pandemic hit I’d yet to relisten. In anticipation of this performance, I went back to give it a few more close listens, drawn in particularly by the use of refrains throughout the work. In this episode, Roberts attributes the recurrence of singalongs throughout each chapter of Coin Coin to their experience many years ago with audience singalongs in Montreal.  

And we’ll roll the old chariot along
We’ll roll the old chariot along
We’ll roll the old chariot along
And we’ll all hang on behind

Performing live that night, Roberts transformed the audience into a chorus, asking the room to collectively sing the refrain each time it recurred, as well as joining in to sing the canon of “We’ll roll the old chariot along” throughout album highlight, “her mighty waters run.” Matana’s band consisted of Gambletron on drums and Nicolas Caloia on upright bass (both of whom also played on Coin Coin Chapter One: Gens De Couleur Libres), Eric Lewis (whose ICASP helped bring Matana to Montreal years earlier) on trumpet, Sam Shalabi (of Shalabi Effect and Land of Kush) on guitar and oud, and Hannah Marcus on fiddle, accordion, and guitar, with everyone contributing to the vocals. [Marcus’ slept on 2004 LP Desert Farmers features an ensemble of Montreal backing musicians, akin to that assembled by Vic Chesnutt for his two records for Constellation.]

In addition to adding alto sax, wordspeak, and vocals, Matana’s role as composer included rolling foam dice and holding up colored paper as a part of a “conduction” cue system, to use Butch Morris’ term for directing improvising musicians, a system of structural improvisation also deployed by the late Greg Tate in the Burnt Sugar ensemble, of which Roberts was a member. Roberts takes some aspects of conduction for their own work, but is careful to emphasize that they use few symbols and have developed their own systems for composition and conduction. Mazz Swift, who contributes violin, tin whistle, and vocals to In the Garden… was also a member of Burnt Sugar alongside Roberts. Each Chapter of COIN COIN is a unique sound world, and that is especially true for Chapter Five. The Center for Contemporary Composition at the University of Chicago allowed Roberts a budget for producer support, bringing in their friend Kyp Malone. In addition to Roberts, Swift, and Malone, the ensemble for Five also includes Matt Lavelle, Darius Jones, Stuart Bogie, Mike Pride, Ryan Sawyer, and Cory Smythe. One musician who is missing, however, is the trumpeter and singer jaimie branch, who sadly died in 2022. Roberts talks about their history with branch, who as a teenager attended their shows in Chicago, later meeting in conservatory in Boston and running in overlapping musical circles in New York, and reflects upon the importance of the final Fly or Die record.

We are named
We remember, they forget

In this episode we also delve in particular into the themes of Chapter Five, which to these ears feel even more urgent and contemporary than in previous chapters, particularly following the repeal of Roe v. Wade, as the album deals with themes of abortion and patriarchal control of ovaried-bodies. As Richard Allen writes in his review,

As bold as Roberts’ previous installments were, the latest entry is even bolder.  While one would never suggest that it is easy to talk about racism, sexism, or prejudice against the LGBTQIA+ community, it is even harder to broach the subject of abortion.  In the four short years since Chapter Four was released, the U.S. has passed a shocking number of anti-abortion laws, restoring the sociopolitical climate experienced by Roberts’ ancestor: very few options, all of them risky, and even fewer advocates.  The religious and political right has been extremely invested in ensuring that babies are born, but much less interested in birth control, financial support for mothers in poverty, strengthened anti-abuse laws, or even adoption.

In this episode, Roberts points out that COIN COIN is not necessarily a project about their family history, but family history becomes a jumping off point for wider narratives in American history. It is especially legible on Chapter Five, but a recurrent theme is that of the dissonance between value and non-value.

Somewhere Matana Roberts has felt valued and supported is in the city of Montreal, and working with their label, Constellation Records, who have committed to the project as a whole. Like Chapter One, Chapter Five has been released as a double ten inch, the symbolism of which Roberts cautions against reading too deeply into. Whether 10 or 12 inch, all the COIN COIN records are beautifully packaged, with album art and prints that provide a glimpse into Roberts’ graphic scores. Roberts also mentions in this episode that once the project is done they hope to release a book collecting all those graphic scores, so start saving up for that now.

In addition to support from Constellation and the impetus for singalongs on COIN COIN, Roberts also goes into more detail about the influence that the community-minded spirit of the Montreal scene has had on them, appreciating that these “cool” people are also genuinely friendly and down to earth, with clear politics and an openness to new sounds. These musicians also embody a kind of punk ethos that Matana defines as a spirit of not needing to ask permission to be different, to be who you are. But there are some things that we should ask permission for.

In the Invisible Jukebox feature in issue 447 of The Wire (November 2023), Matana Roberts explains that  

Finding punk was really liberating in different stages in different ways. There was also some disillusionment and understanding that the politics were not actually as progressive as some people were fronting it to be. Especially in these very white punk scenes, and in terms of including ovaried bodies. So even when riot grrrl showed up, it was amazing, but still very white. There’s also Afro-punk and all its complexities. But I found punk rock and creative improvised music in Chicago very close together. This idea of not having to ask for permission, although I think that’s an antiquated statement now: there are some things you should ask permission for.

This discussion recalls for me Dylan Robinson’s concept of “Hungry Listening,” developed in his 2020 book of the same name, which I previously referenced in my episode with scholar Patrick Nickleson. Robinson describes a settler colonial fixation on Indigenous music as a resource to be extracted: “hungry listening prioritizes the capture and certainty of information.” We should resist practices of hungry listening, adopting more flexible listening practices, instead, emphasizing affective feel, timbre, touch, and texture of sound.” (38) But hungry listening is not confined to any one particular identity or race, and I think the concept can be adapted to describe other starving orientations toward sound.

Listening is a relational action that requires us to be aware of our individual positionalities and orientations, and so I asked Matana about their collaboration with GENG PTP aka KING VISION ULTRA on his SHOOK WORLD album, as GENG’s orientation towards sampling strikes me as representative of a different kind of positionality towards sampling. And so we end the episode with Roberts reflecting on how our own histories can be read as a kind of sampling, and how musicians in particular need to reflect upon our obligation to those we sample.

There’s some liminal space in there between the beauty of that and also… the pain of the stolen. I think artists and musicians really have to ask themselves questions about what they’re taking. … Why are you able to take it? Who are you taking it from? What are they getting out of it? And are you elevating or are you exploiting?

LINKSMatana Roberts
Bandcamp
Constellation
No Sound Left BehindImprovisation, Community and Social PracticeSuoni per il Popolo

TRACKLISTARTIST – “TITLE” (ALBUM, LABEL, YEAR)

Matana Roberts – “the promise” (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)
SP INTRO
Matana Roberts – “…ain’t i. …your mystery is our history” (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)
Matana Roberts – “untitled n. 2” [Live May 6, 2014] (Always, Relative Pitch, 2015)
Matana Roberts – “Libation for Mr. Brown_ Bid Em In…” (Coin Coin Chapter One: Gens de Couleur Libres, Constellation, 2011)
Matana Roberts – “Benediction” (Coin Coin Chapter Two: Mississippi Moonchile, Constellation, 2013)
Matana Roberts – “JP” (Coin Coin Chapter Three: River Run Thee, Constellation, 2015)
Matana Roberts – “I AM YOU” [excerpt] / “(Her Mighty Waters Run)” [Live in Bristol, April 2024] (I AM YOU, Bandcamp, 2024)
Matana Roberts – “Her Mighty Waters Run” (Coin Coin Chapter Four: Memphis, Constellation, 2019)
Matana Roberts – “This Land Is Yours” (Coin Coin Chapter Three: River Run Thee, Constellation, 2015)
TV on the Radio – “Stork & Owl” [intro loop] (Dear Science, 4AD, 2008)
Matana Roberts – “a(way) is not an option” (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)
Matana Roberts – “for they do not know” [excerpt] (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)
jaimie branch – “world war ((reprise))” (Fly or Die Fly or Die Fly or Die ((world war)), International Anthem, 2023)
Matana Roberts – “a caged dance” (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)
Burnt Sugar The Arkestra Chamber – “Dominata (the gabri ballad)” (Making Love To The Dark Ages, LiveWired Music, 2009)
Matana Roberts / Johnny Gandelsman –  “Stitched for Violin”  (This Is America An Anthology 2020-2021, In A Circle Records, 2022)
Darius Jones – “Rainbow” (fLuXkit Vancouver (i​̶​t​̶​s suite but sacred) Northern Spy / We Jazz, 2023)
jaimie branch – “The Mountain (featuring Jason Ajemian)” (Fly or Die Fly or Die Fly or Die ((world war)), International Anthem, 2023)
Godspeed You! Black Emperor (w/ Matana Roberts) – “Rockets Fall On Rocket Falls.” (Yanqui U.X.O., Constellation, 2002)
Jessica Moss – “Resistance Creature” (Galaxy Heart, Constellation, 2023)
Land of Kush – “Safe Space” (Sand Enigma, Constellation, 2019)
Efrim Manuel Menuck – “STARLING TROUBLES SPARROW” (STARLING TROUBLES SPARROW, Longform Editions, 2020)
Exploding Star Orchestra featuring Roscoe Mitchell – “Lo and Volcanic” (Matter Anti-Matter, Rogueart, 2013)
Matana Roberts – “how prophetic” (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)
Matana Roberts – “All Is Written” (Coin Coin Chapter Three: River Run Thee, Constellation, 2015)
Matana Roberts – “Black Lives Matter” (odds and ends, 2014)
Hannah Marcus “Canon” (Desert Farmers, Bar/None Records, 2004)
Matana Roberts – “soundwalk series #1” (odds and ends, 2014)
Town & Country – “Blue Lotus Feet” (Up Above, Thrill Jockey, 2006)
KING VISION ULTRA – “Inferno of 1992 (poet_LaTasha N. Nevada Diggs, sax_Matana Roberts)” (SHOOK WORLD, PTP, 2023)
Cavalier – “déjà-vu” (Different Type Time, Backwoodz, 2024)
Joseph Sannicandro – “V. this aint a riot” (MUSIC FOR INSURRECTION, Lost Children, 2020)
Jerusalem in my Heart –  “Qalaq 9 (w/ Mayss, Mazen Kerbaj, Sharif Sehnaoui & Raed Yassin)” (Qalaq, Constellation, 2021)
Matana Roberts – “we said” (Coin Coin Chapter Five: In The Garden…, Constellation, 2023)

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Sound Propositions is written, recorded, mixed, and produced by Joseph Sannicandro.